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Old & New Concepts Poll
by Cactus/Oxyron/Padua

During IRC discussion about reusing old concepts in today's demos, especially when someone uses his own effects several times in demos, Murdock stated these words: "There is no way to invent something new without building upon old ideas", which were followed ironically by Graham: "Then all effects have been used before and there has been no new demo since 10 years". I asked several C64 sceners if it was improvements over existing effects that counted or maybe new demos shouldn't have used the stuff from the past? And here come the answers...


I wasn't around in the old days, so I am not even used to any old effects. When I see enough variation in the demo, I don't care that much how often a similar trick has been used before. I like being surprised with original demos but it is mostly the design/setup/idea that makes a demo memorable for me. I am also not a coder myself, so I can't really speak about how easy it is to make new things. I agree that old ideas might easily be the best inspiration for new designs, but it does not seem to be a neccesity to me.


No coder colors, please. Do enhance existing effects, and use them, as long as you CAN do it with good design. Do invent new effects once-in-a-while, it is perhaps still possible to invent, take care to use them for the best results in a -DEMOnstration-, though, not just as a tech show-off. Don't just code for showing off to other coders, code for the whole audience. Thanks.


I think if demo coders wouldn't build upon old ideas, the demo scene would be more empty and boring, but it would be even more boring if ALL those demo coders would improve old ideas ONLY. It's always nice to see a new world record and people coding old demo parts in a better way, I'd approve it. Keep it alive! But realizing new ideas is a lot more entertaining for me, so I'd go for new ideas in the first place and secondly for improving old effects.


This is an interesting argument. I still think there is new things to discover on the C64, for example SounDemoN discovered that you can obtain new waveforms in the SID chip that weren't possible before. In a general sense I think improving is always good but it is getting more and more difficult to achieve as we have pushed the C64 for many years now. I think in a demo we need not only hard code (like in the past) but to be able to present that hard code in the best possible way. You can have great code that looks crap or have a good idea that isn't executed properly despite the code being good. So it is about compromise.

There is still some areas for improving on the C64, some of these are very timely, like animation for example. Can you imagine having a full animated demo, like a movie?

Old style effects are good for me - I'm on C64 because I enjoy that time of my life, those old days, watching some old effects or improved effects gives me a good feeling.


Well, maybe I am an exception here, but it's nice if something new that has never seen before was done or improved, but for myself, as being not a coder, just a watcher, I prefer something that looks nicely over something that looks maybe not so nice but breakes a record! I think demos should have again focus on the entertainment and causing something like "Ah, that' was funny!" instead of "Oh, we broke a record!".


I guess people can do whatever they feel like. I don't think there's a problem with people reusing effects (as in coding tricks), but I'd prefer if they at least tried to make them look a bit different from the original. To me, a new effect is something that looks fresh, how it's implemented isn't very important. But well, I can appreciate a nice DYCP too...

If coders want to improve their own effects, that's cool, but if people watching the old and the new versions can't tell the difference, it's pretty pointless.


I agree with Graham. He is definitely right. An elite coder, like Graham and Crossbow, always finds new effects, new techniques and different ways to show similar effects. But what about the others? I'm not an expert, so if I agree with Murdock that means my only potential is to watch some elite demos until all elite groups die. Then what?

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