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The Charts Case
by Cactus/Oxyron

"It's the readers voting, and the results would be the same, regardless in which mag the charts are published."
(Krill/Plush)

Since "Attitude #4" (the first edition that was released under OXYRON label) OXYRON group, members and releases have been removed from "The Charts" chapter in our magazine. This move has caused a small debate on rationality of such a treatment. A voice in discussion has been spoken by many sceners, and their opinions are going to be brought closer to you in this chapter.

The question was following... What do you think about removing Oxyron, its members and releases from "The Charts" chapter in "Attitude"? Do you think that such acts are needed today?

I'm not going to comment on the answers. I suppose that everyone has his own opinions, which might be somehow influenced by this opinion poll containing opinions from sceners all over the world. Have fun reading them.

CACTUS/OXYRON

AGEMIXER/SKALARIA

I always react with a little suspection of fake votes, but I don't believe they are common. I believe you keep an eye on the possible fake votes, but despite of that, I don't think that such restrictions like the negation of a self voting are reasonable. Of course, if the suspicions arise, one can always read an another truth on an another diskmag.

BARACUDA/SMASH DESIGNS

It would be fair. Like in the past, so others had the chance to be there and we've got more different charts then.

BEDRICH/EXON

I definitely consider Oxyron to stay on the charts in "Attitude" - anyway you're the best in the world in my honest opinion.

BLACK JACK/CIVITAS

Well, I think it's good practise to exclude the group that runs a magazine from the charts. Let's take votes for "the best (disk)mag" as an example: all readers know the mag and most like it (why would they read it if not), so chances are high that the mag gets more good votes than other mags, what somehow skews the result.

BRUSH/ELYSIUM

I personally do not care about the charts anymore. Maybe it's better to use some online polling systems (like gathering the views from C64 database sites)... Whatever. These days parties tell you who's the best.

COMMANDER/ROLE

I think that such acts are not needed today. Let people vote for who they like to vote, even if it is for Oxyron (its members and releases). You can only know the full results by taking everything. There will be always people who say that charts can be cheated, but I think that it's better to take all votes...

DEEV/ONSLAUGHT

I don't really think it's a problem. I've not noticed the charts in "Attitude" to be overly biased towards Oxyron members.

ENDO/BRONX

I think Krill/Plush is right, but this is not Oxyrons' fault. So removing Oxyron from charts is injuctice.

DERBYSHIRE RAM/REMEMBER

I would say by today's standards, and also the lack of much new C64 news, it would not matter. I was only really into swapping and cracking, and being in Remember makes it awkward to vote for many crackers these days. I do not think that NOT voting for your own group is right, there should be no restrictions, only NOT voting for yourself.

FLASH/OBSESSION

Oxyron, its members and products should not be removed from the charts. First of all, omitting Oxyron in the charts gives us a wrong picture of the charts as it does not represent the real position of all groups, members and productions. I don`t really think that the guys from Oxyron would cheat the charts because they simply don`t have to do that. :)

JAZZCAT/ONSLAUGHT

Remove the group and its members from the charts - this is still highly important for a magazine that wants to show it is completely objective. Its almost on the same par with voting for yourself on a votesheet.

MERMAN/PEOPLE OF LIBERTY/ROLE

The important thing about the charts is not WHO is being voted for, but that people are voting. The number of regular voters is very low - most diskmags get about 20-25 voters. So, if you read a diskmag, please take the time to vote either by paper or electronic votesheet.

I prefer the old restriction of not voting for yourself, your own group(s) and their productions. As an example, in "Scene World" we allow votes for the mag and our group FROM other people. It gives a better reflection of how people feel.

So, I would say, there is no need to remove Oxyron from "Attitude's" charts. Just don't vote for yourself!

NAFCOM/PEOPLE OF LIBERTY/THE STOCK

Well, I am the wrong person to ask such, maybe. I am not the person who is doing the charts of our magazine, so my personal point of view can differ from the way "Scene World" does the charts. I know some people could say: "Hey, but you do it different than you say!"

Now, that this is clear, here my oppinion: I think for demos the old ones should be included. On the other hand, it should be only allowed to vote for still active sceners! Give newcommers a chance! They are keeping the C64 scene alive and not the so called "elite" which does not raise a finger! Think about it!

NINJA/THE DREAMS

No, faking in such a small scene would be quite obvious. The loss of respect would have much bigger consequences than the gain of being fake #1 in my honest opinion. So, this prevention technique is obsolete from my point of view.

PUTERMAN/FAIRLIGHT

Depends on the mag and the group, in the case of Oxyron and "Attitude" it shouldn't be necessary. It's not like anyone's going to vote for Graham as the best coder or "Deus ex Machina" as the best demo for the "wrong" reasons (whatever those might be) when filling out the "Attitude" votesheet. I wouldn't want to see "Attitude" in the diskmag chart, though, as it's likely that it'd get an unproportional amount of friendship votes.

In some of the other mags it might be a good idea to exclude the mag itself, the editors and their groups, as the people who send in votesheets to those mags mostly consist of friends of the editors. However, the best idea in some of those mags would be to exclude the charts completely, as the people who vote don't seem to take it seriously, and the people who edit the charts don't have the knowledge to do it correctly. I mean, who ever heard of a musician called Wocek, and who would vote for Ed as a graphician?

STRYYKER/TIDE

Not all charts are the same although similar. I would think most people these days are smart enough to be honest, so leaving Oxyron etc. in the charts is OK. If people have a problem then they can mentally remove Oxyron, productions, members etc. themselves. No big problem.

TMR/COSINE/ONSLAUGHT

Yes, people will still vote up a crew if their name is at the top of a votesheet even if not always consciously.

TRUSS/PEOPLE OF LIBERTY

Today there's no the same competition in the mags in comparison to early 90's. My guess is that no one will take it as serious as they once would (cheating etc. in the past), as most sceners are in for fun...

UNLOCK/PADUA/ALBION

That's a good question. Generally, I'm not that happy with the charts anymore the way they are these days. People always vote for the old and mostly inactive legends - why? Because there aren't any new legends around and too less active groups for making a decent chart (considering that fact that you like about half of all demos that came out last year or something). But killing groups and people from the charts still would be a hard thing, since you can't really do that on a reasonable base. Who are you to decide who still belongs in there and who not? That doesn't really answer the question, I know. But I can't give a good answer on this one, since I don't know how I would handle this.

XIII/WOW

The charts wouldn't be complete if not all groups, sceners, releases can compete in it. So I agree with Krill: regardless who releases the mag, the group and/or its members, releases should be able to compete in the charts. We have to trust on the main editor to not alter the results in favour of their groups/members.

ZEITGEIST/CIVITAS

Looking at various charts in other magazines, and I mean: magazine's that are regarded below average scene or which are - at its best - tolerantly smiled at, might give a different impression. That's probably old news to you, but I dare raising the question where to find that very distinction between serious and ignorable charts? Of course, there are pretty basic objectivisms - or at least intersubjectivisms (just for not being corrected by some of the intellectual Swedish fellas :)) about scene and talented sceners, which we might assume to be true on a certain level of practice. There's one wild guess I'd like to throw in that respect: it's all about a mag's level of independance. Especially the German scene holds quite a lot of magazines, whose charts mainly reflect themselves and their cliques. But all these mags do arise from these groups and their small, local cliques, too. In that respect, one might even come to the conclusion that such kind of charts have a point somehow. One is just urged to keep away from comparing them to the charts of trans-scene-magazines, i.e. mags that are feeded or even released independently by various sceners - the "Vandalism News" kind of publication. Coming to think of that, none of the famous magazines which we regard affectively as "serious" (maybe even without being able to name the reasons for such a feeling) hold a high level of independence from its releasing group. And for that fact, the releasing group becomes a minor detail, which - at least to my conclusion - cannot affect the charts in any serious way.

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